Hearsay. "We know it's real." But I don't know it's real. The Pentagon confirming the rumors he heard is of no use to me.

Of course it's not real. There was never a crash at Roswell. I love it just the same.

Methinks he depressurized his cabin a bit too early.

good Mark, very good. Keep it up and we may give your puppy back.

True...it is hearsay, but then, this guy has huge street cred., just because of his profession and skill set. Anyway, there have been numerous first hand witnesses over the years as well. I don't doubt for a minute the verity of this guy and many others from police officers to airline pilots to military etc. Sure it would be nice to get the private tour, but then, where's the mystery and entertainment value in that?

It would be naive and egocentric to think that human life is the only kind which is capable of space travel.

If I have to choose between trusting an astronaut who's walked on the moon and trusting my own cognitive abilities, I'll stick with the astronaut. Sometimes it's better to just jump into the pool whether you can see any water in it or not.

If true, what a terrible mistake they made way back when -- deciding to classify something, and then having the classification work so well that no one knows how to declassify it even if they wanted to. Terrible if true.

#5 & #6: Fantastic stories don't become more credible just because an intelligent person happens to repeat them.

#7: Governments, especially our government, suck at keeping big secrets. If they can't even keep what goes on in the Oval Office a secret, how could they keep a lid on an interplanetary race for over half a century?

He sounds pretty damn cogent to me, all except the part about believing in an alien spacecraft without seeing the evidence first-hand.

cash by johnny cash includes an anecdote where a full bodied vaporous apparition walked through his dining table.

Do i trust johnny cash? Sure.
Do i think johnny cash is a liar? No.
Do i believe in ghosts? No.

I'm comfortable remaining skeptical until theres good proof. As someone said in the other thread, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

not just street cred.

Well, I'm glad this topic isn't dying.. Now if we can just resurrect the ball powder thread so I can start screaming "CORN STARCH!" again...

#6: The problem isn't just the existence of another form of life and their ability to travel through space, but also that we haven't observed any habitable planets near ours.

Unless we missed one or unless the aliens in question can survive some very harsh conditions, their ships would have to move at incredibly fast speeds and they would have to travel for many years to reach us. Doing so would require extremely advanced engines and/or cryogenic technology. It's a tall order.

I love that he brings up the Phoenix Lights. Mostly because they've been thoroughly debunked, which makes it easier to point and laugh at him.

Not that there's really any joy in pointing and laughing at a freakin' Apollo astronaut, but sometimes it must be done.

The BBC World Service TV station did an anniversary celebration of the moon landing where they interviewed as many of the astronauts who'd been to the moon as they could. Most of them had become really quite eccentric. From fundamentalist religion, through belief in the thoroughly discredited Uri Geller and his two penny magic act and all manner of amazing things. It seems it must be really hard to reach the peak of your existence in fame, reputation and have your greatest ever experience, in short, utterly your life's peak when you're in your 20s. Or maybe the kind of training these guys got meant they never got anything like an education. Whatever the reason and it could even be the more sensible astronauts didn't grant the BBC interviews, the fact that a former astronaut believes something adds zero credibility to the claim. Like anything else you still have to examine the evidence.
I can't find a link to the series of interviews :(

Which is more likely, that aliens are among us but hiding or that he's deluded or lying?

I don't believe in UFO's but part of me wants to believe (and I do think this is viral marketing for X-Files 2). I agree with Mark, Roswell? no. Betty and Barney Hill? No. 99 percent of the rest? No. That is why I think that historical accounts are actually better than eyewitness accounts from today.

"That is a point," said the Professor, "which certainly deserves consideration; very careful consideration. For instance ---- if you will excuse me for asking the question ---- does your experience lead you to regard your brother or your sister as the more reliable? I mean, which is the more truthful?"

"That's just the funny thing about it, sir," said Peter. "Up till now, I'd have said Lucy every time."

Heh, I'd bet on time travelers over aliens and anything else over either.

If you were a highly advanced alien race capable of interstellar travel, and you saw the shit we humans were doing to each other and our planet on a daily basis, would you think we are ready to find out we are not the center of the universe?

They're just shooting the equivilent of nature films here from behind the blind. Look what happened the last time any of their kind were exposed... (Roswell: There were no survivors.)

Apollo 18? That doesn't really thoroughly debunk anything. The fact is that the original eyewitness accounts came HOURS before those flares were dropped.

Does it mean that there were alien crafts in the night sky? Nope. It also doesn't mean that somebody dropping flares 2 hours later debunks the eyewitnesses.

If Edgar Mitchell is truthful when he says:

I did take my story to the Pentagon -- not NASA, but the Pentagon -- and asked for a meeting with the Intelligence Committee of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and got it. And told them my story and what I know and eventually had that confirmed by the admiral that I spoke with, that indeed what I was saying was true.

Well that's quite a revelation right there isn't it? It means they are deliberately spreading false beliefs.

The mind can probably play all kinds of tricks on us.

Yeah ok so other things Edgar Mitchell "believes"
ESP
Psychics
That he was cured of cancer by a healer at a distance of half a continent away.
The story here is that his hold on reality has been tenuous for years and it now is getting worse. It's not news that he "believes" in space aliens visiting earth.

Space Madness!

spaced out!

@9

Governments, especially our government, suck at keeping big secrets. If they can't even keep what goes on in the Oval Office a secret, how could they keep a lid on an interplanetary race for over half a century?

Everyone says, "Our government sucks at keeping secrets." Well, guess what? It's not a secret!! People have been talking about this stuff since 47'! There have been tens of thousands of sightings all over the world since then. Many ex-government officials have come out and said the same thing that Edgar is saying here.

You should look up "The Disclosure Project". They are a group of 400+ former intelligence and government officials who want the US government to end the cover-up.

People will say the same thing about any conspiracy, "It can't be true because our government can't keep secrets." They fail to see the obvious flaw in their logic.

Out There: The Government's Secret Quest for Extraterrestrials by Howard Blum (who is apparently still with the New York Times) shows just how seriously the U.S. govt. took UFOs.

Which is a long way from saying there is or was anything there.

I always did find it curious how quickly that 'Flying Disc Captured' headline was buried. But then I've seen stories turn on a dime in journalism. (Speaking from govt. flack experience here.)

The Blum book seems to be out of print, which is a shame, because it's such a good read. Spoiler alert: He finds no "smoking gun" about ETs.

(Though if I recall the book correctly, he did seem to swallow ESP "remote sensing" pretty thoroughly.)

Brainspore: I may be wrong here, but it sure looks to me like #7 was being sarcastic.

Brainspore "If they can't even keep what goes on in the Oval Office a secret, how could they keep a lid on an interplanetary race for over half a century?"
Aliens. Obviously.

I wonder how aliens would deal with "bat-wing syndrome".

@ #14:

The book "The Phoenix Lights" by Lynne Kitei debunks everything in the link you posted. They were sighted days before the very big sighting low in the city and were staying stationary in the air, something flairs cannot do. Also, the initial sightings started on the border of Nevada, and the first widespread reports came from Flagstaff, 2 and a half hours north of Phoenix. The were seen by people on I-17 (the highway that goes from Phoenix to Flagstaff) and on the I-10 going south to Tucson, and finally in Tucson themselves.

#27 posted by Foofer , July 25, 2008 5:33 PM

Everyone says, "Our government sucks at keeping secrets." Well, guess what? It's not a secret!! People have been talking about this stuff since 47'! There have been tens of thousands of sightings all over the world since then. Many ex-government officials have come out and said the same thing that Edgar is saying here.

Yes, people have been talking about the Roswell aliens since '47. They've been talking about witches for even longer. Yet neither E.T. or Harry Potter has been sloppy enough to leave behind any actual evidence, so if either exist they are still very well-kept secrets.

Anyway, how do you keep something secret that's completely outside of your control? Do all the aliens report directly to the President?

actually, lots of secrets have been kept and are still being kept. Big ones. Think about the Glomar Explorer for example.

Somebody needs to yank this boy's pants down, and check to see if he's wearing a diaper. That's usually the first sign when an astronaut's lost it upstairs.

@#15 harry8 - these were exactly my thoughts when i read the first post. people for whom the adulation wanes early in life do seem to gravitate towards exceptionality anywhere they can find it, rather than succumb to mundanity. apart from the kooky astronauts i would cite (off the top of my head) reg presley formerly of the troggs - crop circle nut, and david icke, former coventry city goalie - messianic nut

there are greater things in heaven or on earth, than are dreamed of in our mythologies. (paraphrased)

I live in Phoenix, and I can certify that "Dr." Lynne Kitei is another head case. So many people looking for answers and attention, so few aliens. Oh well, both should have their degrees revoked.

@#5, Mr. Epoch, about the numerous first hand witnesses; I have a good friendship with a person who shows no sign of mental illness and regularly has conversations with "God". He hears the voice and speaks out loud and is quite convinced he is talking to "God". This isn't so far-fetched to a lot of folks, especially the others who also keep a dialogue with their deity of choice. Me, I think it's a complete delusion. We humans are good at that.

Numerous first hand witnesses can be found for lots of experiences that rely on second person reportage and nothing else. Ghosts, sea serpents, the omnipresent all powerful god who manages to never reveal himself/herself/itself to the the vast majority of us, and of course, space aliens. This guy doesn't get any more cred because he's been on the moon than I get for flossing regularly. If you make a wild ass claim, you need more than verbal confirmations from people who've had their own verbal confirmations.

Why does anyone believe in this bunk? Why the hell would an alien species capable of vast interplanetary space travel collude to keep silent with the U.S. government? What, they're pro privatized health insurance? C'mon! What advanced space alien society would hold their council in support of the loony-tunes we have as a political/military elite?

No aliens, none! Never happened! I DEMAND HARD DRUGS!

domeier,

You should be ashamed of yourself for that comment.

it's...it's ...it's called "How to Serve Man"!... and...and...IT'S A COOKBOOK!!

What I don't get is the people who think this guy must know what he's talking about just because he's walked on the moon. Just like being shot down in a fighter plane doesn't qualify someone to be President, stepping on a rock that hundreds of brilliant people other than yourself worked for years to put you on doesn't qualify someone to tell whether stories about aliens he hasn't actually seen are true.

#35 and #41 Thank you for making me LOL after a loooonnnngggg day.

77 year old man loses the plot, film at 11.

There's a great conspiracy theory floating around, that goes like this:

Some time soon (decades), a government agency will "reveal" that the whole aliens-visiting-Earth thing is true, and has been true all along. They will only be telling us now because there is a "dire threat" and in fact, we are going to be invaded or whatever.
So, as one, we will put all our efforts into building a global military machine, churning out weapons and lives. Fighting mock, organised battles (or, indeed, just being shown faked cgi reports of such battles) as we get entrenched in an unwinnable "forever war".. a la Oceania vs EastAsia vs Eurasia vs Oceania vs etc.
...

I mean, imagine tomorrow, we get told that there is "life out there", by (for instance) the US and UK government. That they come out on record, with whatever amazing evidence, maybe some crazy tech or something, and unquestionable video evidence. They tell us that the secret had been kept for decades, that now was the time to share it wth all people on Earth.

Wouldn't you so want to believe it? Conspiracy theory aside, it'd be mindblowing. All your imaginings come true. All our worries about being truly alone - put aside. There is intelligent life, out there.

And then, this amazing information starts turning dour, starts suggesting that we are in real trouble, of a kind we have never faced before, let alone known about. These "others" want to hurt us. Want to take our homeworld for themselves. The cradle of humanity, all we know. Destroy every trace of our existance, not out of hatred, but of indifference to our worth. They will come here, and blow us off this planet; like dust, off a small precious rock.

But still, some don't believe..

The conspirator's triumph; some fabulous piece of tech, which has been worked on for decades in secret (the very thing that has caused the UFO sightings for years). A flying-saucer-style gun platform, is unleashed in swarms. Utter destruction follows in carefully selected "sympathy cities", designed to lure in the last unbelievers. No more deniers, now. All is terror.

Suddenly, through panic and fear, we are voting legslation through, ordering private companies to turn their forges and manufactories over to war production. We need weapons, defences, bodies. Our young will put their lives to use, saving the future for their young. We become single minded, and focused. We cannot let our existence be for nothing.

Fight!!!
...

It's so good, I'd almost put a hundred quid on it, at astronomical odds, just in case :)

Antinous: I hereby sincerely apologize for my earlier comment. Please don't stalk me. Please. I don't know what the frequency is, I swear I don't.

mgn f y wll... th ldr f th ffth nvdr frc spkng t
th cmmndr n chf...

"Thy'r md t f mt."

"Mt?"

"Mt. Thy'r md t f mt."

"Mt?"

"Thr's n dbt bt t. W pckd svrl frm dffrnt prts f th plnt, tk thm brd r rcn vssls, prbd thm ll th wy thrgh. Thy'r cmpltly mt."

"Tht's mpssbl. Wht bt th rd sgnls? Th mssgs t th strs?"

"Thy s th rd wvs t tlk, bt th sgnls dn't cm frm thm. Th sgnls cm frm mchns."

"S wh md th fckng mchns? Tht's wh w wnt t cntct."

"Thy md th mchns. Tht's wht 'm tryng t tll y. Mt md th mchns."

"Tht's bllsht. Hw cn mt mk mchn? Y'r skng m t blv n sntnt mt."

"'m nt skng y, 'm tllng y. Ths crtrs r th nly sntnt rc n th sctr nd thy'r md t f mt."

"Myb thy'r lk th rfl. Y knw, crbn-bsd ntllgnc tht gs thrgh mt stg."

"Np. Thy'r brn mt nd thy d mt. W stdd thm fr svrl f thr lf spns, whch ddn't tk t lng. D y hv ny d th lf spn f mt?"

"Spr m. ky, myb thy'r nly prt mt. Y knw, lk th Wddl. mt hd wth n lctrn plsm brn nsd."

"Np. W thght f tht, snc thy d hv mt hds lk th Wddl. Bt tld y, w prbd thm. Thy'r mt ll th wy thrgh."

"N brn?"

"h, thr s brn ll rght. t's jst tht th brn s md t f mt!"

"S... wht ds th thnkng?"

"Y'r nt ndrstndng, r y? Th brn ds th thnkng. Th mt."

"Thnkng mt! Y'r skng m t blv n thnkng fckng mt!"

"Ys, thnkng mt! Cnscs mt! Lvng mt. Drmng mt. Th mt s th whl dl! r y gttng th pctr?"

"h sht. Y'r srs thn. Thy'r md t f mt."

"Fnlly, Ys. Thy r ndd md t mt. nd thy'v bn tryng t gt n tch wth s fr lmst hndrd f thr yrs."

"S wht ds th mt hv n mnd?"

"Frst t wnts t tlk t s. Thn mgn t wnts t xplr th
nvrs, cntct thr sntnts, swp ds nd nfrmtn. Th sl."

"Fck tht. W'r sppsd t tlk t mt?"

"Tht's th d. Tht's th mssg thy'r sndng t by rd. 'Hll. nyn t thr? nyn hm?' Tht srt f thng."

"Thy ctlly d tlk, thn. Thy s wrds, ds, cncpts?"

"h, ys. xcpt thy d t wth mt."

" thght y jst tld m thy sd rd."

"Thy d, bt wht d y thnk s n th rd? Mt snds. Y knw hw whn y slp r flp mt t mks ns? Thy tlk by flppng thr mt t ch thr. Thy cn vn sng by sqrtng r thrgh thr mt."

It's us you guys, we are they Aliens! So they can't be that intelligent of a life form!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDMPVms3SRo

no slood either

I have been a pretty skeptical person on this subject, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it isn't a very important discussion that we need to have as a community. Check out this video I am curious to see what everyone thinks. http://www.netro.ca/disclosure/npccmenu.htm

P.T. Barnum had an opinion on that subject.

skeptical persons are cute and funny:

We live alone in the universe, nothing influence earth, we are Not in the cosmos, physical and cosmology are totally PERFECT, humans are alone,

and even after saying those things, sometimes they believe in God...

Seriously ?

I can't NOT believe in aliens because scientists continually find organisms living in areas that were previously thought to be too extreme to live in at all. I doubt aliens look anything like us, and they may not even be intelligent, they could just be some sort of bacteria. I can't see how you can be a skeptic when we keep finding organisms on our own planet that live in the most inhospitable places possible.

@seamusandrewmurphy, #39: so many people believe in this stuff and all the rest of it (ghosties, goblins, god, divining, the soul, "climate change isn't real, the climatologists are all in league with the environazis to stop us enjoying the fruits of capitalism", spoon bending, crystal waving and all the rest of it) because a very high fraction of humans are either ignorant and/or stupid. I myself am profoundly ignorant of many things, but if there's one thing in life I've learnt it's not to assume because I know something about, say, flamenco or network security or planetary science, that this means my intuitions about any other complicated subject are any better than Joey the Clown's. Or Joey the Bush Kangeroo come to that.

See, this is the fact that recently UFO sightings and aliens activities are getting more and more, even in india where i stay , few days back news came that in mumbai city there was a UFO caught in cam at late night by a teenager.

I wonder why its happening but you guys can take a look at that UFO case news here :
http://www.ufo-aliens.info

Oh, my.

I'm a sceptic; show me proof (and not merely video, unless it was captured on write-once media which somehow could be certified to come directly from a recording device /which isn't just capturing a rendered clip from tv in/). Show me falsifiable proof and I won't just become a believer (as a famous person put it: you don't believe in the postman, do you?) but I will imediately acknowledge the fact.

However, I am always amused by the people who say: 'the government can't cover up something so big!'.
Ever heard of the Manhatten project? That was kept secret pretty well.

So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish by Douglas Adams had a spaceship crashing onto Harrods department store in London. A robot emerged and said, "take me to your lizard."

Clear photos, no ambiguity, no more doubts.

That's the kind of evidence I want to see!thess

Master of Space and Time "skeptical persons are cute and funny:"
Some of us are just cute.

"We live alone in the universe,"
From what I've seen so far, which is just us, that may be true. Personally, I believe that if there is other life in the universe, we're simply too far away from each other (in both distance and time) to ever meet. That doesn't mean that I definitely do believe in aliens, it just means that I don't not believe. The question, as it were, is open, but points to "no, but hopeful" until evidence makes it point elsewhere. I have the same stance on God. Also, a really good piece of turkey white meat. All the ones I've had so far have been dry and unappetizing.

"nothing influence earth,"
...if you're talking about astrology, then except for the gravitational-slash-lit by stars senses, yes, "nothing influence Earth". We capitalize the name of our planet around here, Mister.

"we are Not in the cosmos,"
I have no idea what you mean. Do you have any idea what you mean? If so, can you explain it to yourself, then get back to us?

"physical and cosmology are totally PERFECT,"
Again, you're confusing me. Perfect? Nothing in science is perfect. Even math sometimes ends up with fractions left over after you divide one thing by another thing. Dang math!
As for "physical" perfection, you have only to look at my body. People tell me that I'm cut like a granite statue of a Greek god. While this may be because of my dead eyes and mottled, grey skin, I prefer to believe that it's because people think I'm hot.

"humans are alone,"
Now you're just repeating yourself.

"and even after saying those things, sometimes they believe in God..."
And so? I can't speak for those skeptics. I'm sure they have their own reasons.

...
MoSaT, skepticism isn't dangerous or foolish. At worst, it's narrow-minded. Excessive credulity, now that's foolish. I'll believe in aliens when they come down of their high horse and have tea with me. And they'd better not stick me with the bill.

Phikus, I enjoyed your meat show a lot :)

"They talk by flapping their meat at each other."

Brilliant!

#51 Dionysus

The disclosure project is very interesting, but it almost makes me more skeptical :)
I couldn't believe it when I found it, and here's all these respectable science and military types telling us about aliens and missions to collect alien carcasses from downed ships! Mental.

Very difficult to accept it though. As much as I'd want to.

Nobody here ever read Messengers of Deception?

I dunno about aliens. I do know that when I have talked with people about being open-minded enough to discuss mystical experiences with others, they open up and discuss mystical experiences of their own. Premonitions, poltergeists, exploding glassware, flying saucers, astral projection, ESP, pyramid power, and just plain weird stuff like seeing the same unchanging old couple in a crowd at various different times in their life.

Seriously, just try asking your friends, and don't mock or laugh at them. I think the chances are very good you will be amazed. Dredging up such memories may be painful or frightening, so be gentle. Maybe painful because some may be connected to the death of a beloved one. Maybe frightening in part because they have never had anyone they could talk to about their experience.

When I was very young, there were several times I saw myself lying in bed from above. I thought this was common. Also, again while young, I found I could induce mystical episodes. Something akin to 'alice in wonderland' syndrome induced by twirling a small coin close to my eye. Something akin to astral projection induced by lying on a low bed in a large room staring at a distant point on the floor.

Just moments, that fade, likely with age and understanding. Such experiences don't happen to me anymore. Most times I'm happy with that.

And no, I don't have an explanation. But to say everyone is deluded isn't very satisfying to me (though it may well be true).

Just to be clear about my Conspiracy Theory @ #45.

There are no aliens involved, just us.

I had caught a space alien and cooked it. very delicious!

I am meat
Hear me ROAR!

ARKIZZLE@58: The credit goes to Hugo and Nebula award winning author Terry Bisson in his short story They're Made Out Of Meat which first appeared in Omni magazine. It continues (If you'll forgive my "slooding", TAKUAN. I think it's hilarious and relevant...)

"mgd. Sngng mt. Ths s ltgthr t mch. S wht d y dvs?"

"ffclly r nffclly?"

"Bth."

"ffclly, w r rqrd t cntct, wlcm, nd lg n ny nd ll sntnt rcs r mltbngs n th qdrnt, wtht prjdc, fr, r fvr. nffclly, dvs tht w rs th rcrds nd frgt th whl thng."

" ws hpng y wld sy tht."

"t sms hrsh, bt thr s lmt. D w rlly wnt t mk cntct wth mt?"

" gr n hndrd prcnt. Wht's thr t sy?" `Hll, mt. Hw's t gng?' Bt wll ths wrk? Hw mny plnts r w dlng wth hr?"

"Jst n. Thy cn trvl t thr plnts n spcl mt cntnrs, bt thy cn't lv n thm. nd bng mt, thy nly trvl thrgh C spc. Whch lmts thm t th spd f lght nd mks th pssblty f thr vr mkng cntct prtty slm. nfntsml, n fct."

"S w jst prtnd thr's n n hm n th nvrs."

"Tht's t."

"Crl. Bt y sd t yrslf, wh wnts t mt mt? nd th ns wh hv bn brd r vssls, th ns y hv prbd? Y'r sr thy wn't rmmbr?"

"Thy'll b cnsdrd crckpts f thy d. W wnt nt thr hds nd smthd t thr mt s tht w'r jst drm t thm."

" drm t mt! Hw strngly pprprt, tht w shld b mt's drm."

"nd w cn mrk ths sctr nccpd."

"Gd. grd, ffclly nd nffclly. Cs clsd. ny thrs? nyn ntrstng n tht sd f th glxy?"

"Ys, rthr shy bt swt hydrgn cr clstr ntllgnc n clss nn str n G445 zn. Ws n cntct tw glctc rttns g, wnts t b frndly gn."

"Thy lwys cm rnd."

"nd why nt? mgn hw nbrbly, hw nttrbly cld th nvrs wld b f n wr ll ln."

More Sir Arthur C. Clarke quotes for ya:

"When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong."

"The only way of finding the limits of the possible is by going beyond them into the impossible."

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

They're Made Out of Meat was also made into a charming short film. Misses out the great closing lines, though.

It is the vastness of time that makes aliens seem unlikely to me, even more so than the vastness of space.

What are the chances that aliens are only just now trying to reach Earth? What stopped them from getting to Earth 150,000,000 years ago, when the dinosaurs ran the Earth? Or even 15,000 years ago, when all we had to fight back with were sharpened sticks and stones? Why wouldn't they stay once they got here? (Don't say we're the aliens, because then you can't explain why we share DNA with fungi.)

Perhaps one civilization has a "Prime Directive," but could you believe that they all do? If technology progresses like we expected it to, and space travel actually is feasible, where are the alien colonies? What goes wrong that keeps them from us?

Like time travel, if space travel were possible, where are the tourists?

A couple fairly recent articles have had interesting takes on this. One is by Nick Bostrom in the May/June 2008 Technology Review (registration required to read online, though). A second was a debate in the Sept/Oct 2002 issue of Mercury magazine, on why the Search for Extraterrestrial Life will or will not fail, by two astronomers. The first snips of the articles can be accessed here.

I think the attitudes of denial/skepticism/ridicule posted here are a very interesting and revealing example of just why secrecy was deemed to be necessary back in the 40's and has continued as the most compartmentalized, closely held secrets in history. There is something about this scenario that the majority of humanity just cannot seem to stomach. They recoil from the concept with such immediate denial that it is strange. In fact, some of the individuals who were purportedly the first examiners of the Roswell evidence lost their mental balance and committed suicide, Secretary Forrestal being the most famous case.

Most often, the folks who deny and ridicule the most are those that have done little or no research into the question. As defense, they clutch at things that are obviously fakes like the notorius nut cases and crazy eccentrics who claim to have gone to Venus with their alien friends as representative of why it is 'just silly to believe'. And if those were the only examples out there I would be in complete agreement with their skepticism. On the other hand, anyone with the courage and open mindedness to seriously research this question rapidly finds that there is such a preponderance of credible witnesses reporting first hand encounters that it is very hard for a rational person to discount them all as being false or the product of deluded minds. Statisically (or just logically), there are far too many authoritative occurrances of contact or unmistakeable sightings by otherwise perfectly sane and serious people to simply dismiss this matter out of hand.

If this question causes you to be uncomfortable or spurs a need to ridicule it, I suggest that you ask yourself why. Why does a phenomona that has so many, many observations (including hard data such as radar tracks, optical imagery, etc.) deserve only ridicule and not hard research? And why is the government so unwilling to discuss the subject officially (And don't say that Project Bluebook did anything of the sort - it was a charade designed to undercut public opinion and inquiry)?

For those who claim that the government sucks at keeping secrets, you must not have read the history of the U-2 or Blackbird aircraft. They were developed and deployed with great secrecy and were only revealed when they were almost obsolete. They probably aren't the only ones - they are just the ones we now know about. The Glomar explorer escapade was another example. When there is a very good reason for secrecy, the US government does a very adequate job of keeping its cards close to its vest. From the research I've done, the reality of alien contact is the most highly guarded and compartmentalized of secrets ever, with an extraordinarily few individuals at the top of the pyramid who are aware of the full spectrum of knowledge. Their predecessors set things up in ways that assure full control and has mechanisms that automatically circumvent inquiry or deeper examination.

Actually, maybe the naysayers are right to be afraid of facing this. The simplistic view that the aliens must be benign because they haven't already destroyed us is not prima facie evidence that they have our best interests at heart. Their possible collusion with our government (if that is what it is and not just their avoidance of official contact) may mask a more dreadful and sinister agenda. Then too, it is possible that the technology that the aliens use is just too easily able to be converted to terrorist weapons beyond even nuclear devices. I have run across indications that this may be the case in my investigations. Just a theory, but not an implausible reason for extremely high secrecy if true.

Bottom line, I think the human race is just not yet ready to be entrusted with the knowledge of other, more highly developed entities and their technologies. It seems like we probably have a ways to go before we qualify for full disclosure.

podkayne,

I've kicked that question upstairs.

#69 Endstar

There are lots of indications (no hard evidence, just indications) that the aliens may have been coming around here for eons. There are lots of reports that hint that they may have had a direct hand in altering certain primitive primates into what we are today. Also, a lot of early mythologies and ancient gods seem suspiciously alien in nature. Combining this with repeated reports by persons who claim to have been briefed on alien presence that say pointedly that the aliens have altered the human genome makes me think that it is not unthinkable that it might be true.

Harvey, you have summarized an attitude of respecful ignorance (not meant pejoratively) so well that I would like to respond to your points in order.
You believe "...There is something about this scenario that the majority of humanity just cannot seem to stomach." But I see little evidence of that. In fact, the popularity of SF channel TV programming seems to contradict this without much need of exposition.
You argue that "Most often, the folks who deny and ridicule the most are those that have done little or no research into the question." It's hard to refute "most" without statistical methods, but certainly most of the people that I know who dismiss alien contact stories do so from more, not less, knowledge. They take into account, as enthusiasts so rarely do, the really strong disposition of the human mind to make some kind of sense of what it sees and hears even if there really isn't a pattern to detect. People seeing things, hearing things that arent't there or aren't what they are supposed to be; this is a really weak argument against eyewitness accounts to anyone who hasn't had their nose rubbed in the fact that people don't really operate in real time - just an illusion of it that the brain will maintain at any cost. An understanding of human sensory fallibility accounts for more of the skepticism that I hear directed toward UFOlogists than any other single cause.
You choose as an example of good operational security (to indulge in jargon) the spy aircraft developed and deployed secretly by the US. But these were much less secret in fact than they were in name. Most people who's jobs revolved around aerospace knew quite a bit about these projects even back in the day - think "need to know" rather than "top secret - destroy before reading." Really paradigm-shifting secrets are the ones that leak first.
As for speculating re: the aliens motives regarding us - I really am not ridiculing your ideas when I insist that actual contact with aliens should precede speculation re: their motives.

if they don't want to talk to me, I don't want to talk to them

Ahh, but Eustace, statistically speaking there is almost no chance that life is limited to earth. Independant of what people have reported seeing, the universe is so enormous that even the proposition that our intelligence is unique, is highly unlikely.

And people can't help but speculate when motives are unknown to them (especially when they may or may not even exist). Best to watch and learn about those making the speculation.

http://www.nikon.com/about/feelnikon/universcale/index.htm

MDHATTER, on this we are in agreement; the likelyhood of something we would recognize as sentience arising elsewhere seems statistically certain - given what we know about chemistry. But that shouldn't be confused with other cases.
For example, is it more likely that a retired astronaut was able to get unofficial but certain confirmation of the existence of a secret government project, a project that has been kept successfully secret for over sixty years; OR was he told something by someone that he was willing to interpret as that?

And Takuan; for really getting a sense of universal scale, try Hubble's Deep Space image

I think the reason the Pentagon told Edgar Mitchel that the stories he heard were true was because it was in someone's interest that he believe in them. The social fiction about aliens is useful to security types as a means of testing for security leaks. It's also a perfect cover for cold war projects that go wrong.

Someone found the remains of Project Mogul in a field in Roswell. Security has been compromised, what to do? The project is vital at a time when nuclear war was a real possibility. You can't clamp down, we have a free press (or did) and anyway, even if you did that nothing spreads so fast as a secret. So you allow people to believe it was a UFO, in fact, you encourage them. Over the years the mythology that is built up becomes really useful. All kinds of things the government is doing in the dark can be rolled into some form of the mythology or other. At this point the entire government could go on TV and admit they lied about everything, they made it all up, and no one would ever believe them. Sweet.

I ran the Hubble imagery through my patented pattern recog software:
http://www.phys.lsu.edu/students/brunner/images/sagan2.jpg

why do primates worry so much about aliens? If you can't eat it, fuck it or fight it, why should it even register? You are letting your ancestors down.

http://www.dailygalaxy.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/05/07/ape_2.jpg

I think that Sagan, like Asimov, would blend right in to an advanced, alien society; what's more, he would do us proud as a representative.
And Takuan, I only stress about these things when the eating, fucking, and fighting are taken care of. Then, at my leisure.

Noen - I would find your thesis more persuasive if I had had less experience with government. You will never persuade me that they are that farsighted as a rule!

Are you saying you're inedible, Takuan? Or... is that just what you want us to think?

How can you be so sure the Greys are not edible?

just extra chewy

Take that with a grain of salt...

re #15 I saw that BBC show (or something similar) years ago and have been looking for it ever since. I don't think it is so much that their best days are behind them. What I remember most is how mind-blowing the experience of going into space and landing on the moon was for so many of the astronauts. How could one not be forever changed by the experience? So they seem crazy to us mere earthbound ones.

re #80 on Project Mogul -- one correction: nuclear war was not a "real possibility" in 1947 because only one country possessed nuclear weapons. Since that country had already used them twice in a war and threatened to use them again against other enemies, other countries found it necessary to develop their own to defend themselves. The USSR succeeded in 1949. (Similarly, the leadership in Iran today seems to think that nukes will help them be able to defend themselves (or deter) against the two nuclear powers that continue to threaten them with attack. Both of these nuclear powers have also demonstrated a willingness to invade and bomb other countries in the neighborhood.

"Take that with a grain of salt..."

...What? And spoil their natural flavor? For shame, Eustace! I can tell you're obviously one who should be kept away from the kitchen! No culinary skills at all!

Oh, and for the record, chopped Grey meat is already being cloned and used. Ask McDonalds to disclose the truth behind McRib...

Here is that BBC documentary:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_the_Shadow_of_the_Moon

PODKAYNE@70 & ANTINOUS@72:

Good point. I don't claim to know much about copyright law, and I guess I should have asked the author (though the chances of this thread still being read and therefore having any relevance by the time he might have gotten back to me are probably low.) I posted it out of the assumption that since this is a blog posting, and not an attempt to purvey the guy's work for profit; and since it is credited; linking to the author's own site, therefore giving him exposure while sharing his ideas, humor, as well as his (admittedly inferred) intent for writing the piece, and since the author has given permission for others to post this online, I thought it would be ok. I could be wrong. If the author or editors object, then please unpublish with my apologies. =D

ANT: *-or TNH. I didn't mean to leave the moderators out, if that's what you meant by "upstairs."

I find this confusing (therefor I'm suspicious). It is saying "he [the Admiral] tried to get me in" it is also saying that the Admiral himself was not "in." Which is it?

" He was told 'Admiral, you don't have a need to know, and therefore go get lost,' essentially." "

So, it sounds like not just hearsay (Mitchell never says HE has direct knowledge) but WORSE! It is hearsay of hearsay.

I'm very sympathetic, interested, and open to UFO or alien contact stories. I just think that fact was kind of slid in like a bad card and don't like that kind of sneaky rhetoric from anyone. Moon landing astronaut heroes not withstanding.

Teresa, coming from the world of publishing, knows all the answers to these questions.

Material posted here is CC licensed. Would this apply to material that already has a license status? That is something an author might be concerned about, even if he is open to putting work on the web.

From Terry Bisson's site:
"All proprietary Copyrighted™ material. Enjoy, if you must, but please don't read aloud, reproduce, perform..."
...yet the text of the story linked to above is not from his site. And the link on his site to the story is not to that page. That link goes here:
http://www.electricstory.com/stories/story.aspx?title=meat/meat

What they found at Roswell was "The Artifact", it had been exposed by erosion, and was very old. Interstellar distances are too great for contemporary visitation.when you describe an object,it requires three dimensions (axis) Time is the fourth dimension, when you look out into Space, you are viewing things as they were in the past. after Roswell, technology exploded in leaps and bounds (IC chips, silicon wafers)

So the gist of what I've read here is an ex astronaut is just fruitloopy for saying he believes in aliens because the US government says they don't exist.

Wait! Hang on - the US government and it's agencies are to be trusted to tell the truth on anything? What alternative reality do the proponents of this idea come from?

Around the time of the Roswell incident the US military carried out atomic testing on enlisted men and women, to then deny any radiation type health problems were in any way connected.

Going forward in time a different administration denied that Agent Orange had any lasting harmful effects.

Yet another tired to hire Mafia hit men to assassinate a political leader they disliked, subsequently denying having done so.

In these cases there was a wealth of data to show the government was lying through it's teeth. It's logical to conclude there were surely more occasions when this occurred, frequently enough to lead the pre-p